2

Letter to an Adventist Professor

Posted by mrloudcry on March 23, 2011 in Blogging Rules & Introductions, Mr. Loud Cry Chronicles |

OPEN LETTER TO AN ADVENTIST PROFESSOR
by: mrloudcry

March 24, 2011
Hello Professor XXXXXXX,

Firstly, I respect your faith and convictions. Secondly, I accept our differences, and am not trying to change your mind. Thirdly, my website is not intended for Adventists who are satisfied with their faith. Although many Adventists who are satisfied with their faith will take exception to the things I have shared. My faith has changed. I am no longer a Seventh-day Adventist. This website answers the question, “FOR HEAVENS SAKE, WHY DAVID?” Thankfully we have the freedom of both speech and of religion in this country. This website is an expression my views, and convictions. I thank God for the millions who have bled and died to secure for us this freedom. GOD BLESS AMERICA! In America, If you don’t like what someone is saying you have the freedom to change the channel! Fourthly, my website is intended to aid Adventists who are not satisfied with their faith.

“Free speech carries with it some freedom to listen.” Early 20th Century Judge, Warren E. Burger


Ron Paul, for President 2012 Please Sign the Ron Paul 2012 Petition!

There are THOUSANDS of Adventists who feel they are not good enough to pass Ellen White’s Investigative Judgment, and doubt their overall salvation. My website is intended for them. I want to encourage faith in Jesus Christ, trust in his plan of salvation, and bring assurance where there is now doubt, and uncertainty.

My Assessment of Adventism After Two Decades of Walking Among them.

There are schisms within Adventism just as broad as among the rest of Christianity. They are known as the liberals and the conservatives. I actually recognize four groups.

  1. ULTRA-conservatives
  2. Nominal-Conservatives
  3. ULTRA-Liberals
  4. Nominal-Liberals
  • The ULTRA-conservatives (a smaller group) are perceived by others as generally good people, but also lacking true joy, and as being legalistic.
  • Whereas the nominal-conservatives in general do not go to their same extremes.
  • Many of the ULTRA-conservatives have splintered off from the Adventist church starting Independent churches, home groups and ministries. They are perceived by others as condemning, judgmental and self-righteous. They on the other hand view them selves like modern day John the Baptists.
  • The ULTRA-liberals (a smaller group) also have their extremes, going as far left as the “once saved always saved” groups within Christianity.
  • Whereas most nominal-liberals with in Adventism do not go to those extremes.
  • Among the middle of the road groups of both the nominal-conservatives and nominal-liberals there are many who are Biblical Christians within the Adventist faith. These are the ones men like Dr. Walter Martin (author of the Kingdom of the Cults), and most of Christianity would consider Evangelical. It is the ULTRA-conservatives that have caused Walter Martin, and much of the rest of Christianity to reconsider whether or not to classify the Seventh-day Adventists as a cult!
  • The ULTRA-conservatives take the writings of Ellen White quite literally.
  • The ULTRA-liberals reject her writings entirely.
  • The nominal-conservatives accept BOTH the Bible and Ellen White, but hold closely to those “precious gems” in Ellen White’s writings which Ron Graybill (Ellen White Estate) confessed were mostly taken from other Christian authors, and because these Adventists glean from the truths “borrowed” from the conservative Christian authors of the 19th century they are aided in remaining true Christians by them. From what I have seen, that is the class I perceive you to be. That is, a nominal-conservative, with a balanced view of Christianity, not only a sincere Christian, but a Christian in the truest sense.
  • The nominal-liberal like the nominal-conservatives, accept Ellen White as divinely inspired, and especially enjoys Desire of Ages, and that class of writing, which were written when she had a staff of professional editors to polish her writings and make them more beautiful to read. Although by confession this class accepts all the writings of Ellen White, they either refrain from reading the testimonies, Early Writings, Spiritual Gifts, and those things with more harsh teachings, written in a time when she did not have her staff of editors; or else they tend to not view them as literally as the conservatives do; or classify some things as inspired, and other things as merely the opinion of Ellen White. Among those things they count as merely her own opinion as it turns out really were just that. Those sections in her writings are the things which Ron Graybill (Ellen White Estate), confessed were the statements of Ellen White woven into the works she “borrowed” from other Christian authors, i.e. her own ideas that were added to them. Many of this class in Adventism, have rejected the Investigative Judgment entirely!
  • There is another class who maintains the Investigative Judgment, but feel a great burden upon them about it. They are uncertain of their salvation. Some of which suffer bouts of back sliding, with a roller coaster up and down experience. They try really hard to live up to the extra-biblical standards in Mrs. White’s writings, fail and give up; only to try again later repeating the cycle.
  1. My website is designed for the Ultra-liberal to remind him there are hundreds of things CHRISTIANS ARE TO OBEY! And that we are NOT once saved always saved, and that WE ARE TO OBEY ALL THE TEACHINGS OF CHRIST AND HIS APOSTLES. My website demonstrates to the ULTRA-liberal that a former third generation SDA, just like them has rejected Ellen White, and the investigative judgment, BUT STILL BELIEVES IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, REPENTANCE, AND OBEDIENCE TO ALL THE COMMANDMENTS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT. My hope is to call this class back to fidelity and to awaken within them a desire to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and the commandments of His apostles.
  2. My website is for the ultra-conservative. To remind them, that Ellen White is not the center of the universe. To challenge them to come back to the Bible as the center of their faith.
  3. My website is for the troubled soul who doubts his salvation. For the one who is plagued with doubts and fears. Who is anxious and worried about being good enough to pass the Investigative Judgment.
  4. My website is for myself. To strengthen my own faith in the word of God. Iron Sharpens Iron. When the Adventist disagrees with me, or brings a new argument to my attention it challenges me to dig deeper in the Bible, or to study out something new, ultimately enhancing my faith and increasing my knowledge. “A successful man is one who can lay a firm foundation with the bricks others have thrown at him.” 20th Century Journalist, David Brinkley
  5. My website is for men like you. To STRENGTHEN YOUR FAITH. It challenges you to dig deeper in the Bible, to study out something new, and to enhance your faith and your knowledge.
  6. My website is for the Evangelical Christian. To STRENGTHEN THEIR FAITH. It challenges them to dig deeper in the Bible, to study out something new, and to enhance their faith and their knowledge.

I have had Adventists who have told me this is exactly what talking with me has done for them. ON ALL POINTS MENTIONED ABOVE.

“I would go to the deeps a hundred times to cheer a downcast spirit. It is good for me to have been afflicted, that I might know how to speak a word in season to one that is weary.” Charles Spurgeon

“An investment in knowledge pays the best interest.” Benjamin Franklin

I count you not only a sincere Christian, as you have named me, but I count you a BOTHER and a TRUE CHRISTIAN. I do not doubt your relationship with God, nor your knowledge of the Bible and other matters. I BELIEVE I WILL MEET YOU ONE DAY IN THE NEW EARTH INSIDE THE NEW JERUSALEM.

Regarding your statements concerning your bluntness:

I welcome it. I am objective. Some take questions and comments about their faith VERY PERSONALLY! They feel “attacked” and persecuted. Those who like you and I who have extensive experience with apologetics are OBJECTIVE. We see the argument presented as a concept, a doctrine, and a belief. Something to be studied, something to be reasoned with, something to be answered.

  • Brother XXXXXXX, people are fragile and come in various forms and have differing attitudes.
  • Some are balanced,
  • whereas others get easily offended.
  • Some share what they believe because they love their faith and want to share it with others;
  • whereas others share what they believe, because they love the taste of victory. For some It makes them feel better than the other when they win the argument. It is my experience that this is the class that feels “attacked” and persecuted when people question their teachings. In reality this is a demonstration of their own insecurities.

“None are more unjust in their judgments of others than those who have a high opinion of themselves.” Charles Spurgeon

Brother XXXXXXX, I perceive you to be a man who loves his beliefs dearly, who wants to defend Ellen White like you would your own mother. For the Adventists she has been like a mother. Therefore my challenge may be perceived by some, like a boy in a school yard calling another boys mother a bad name. Instant passionate feelings naturally call you to defend her. That is honorable and as I began this letter with, I respect that. The same happens when you question Mary, with a Roman Catholic! They passionately instinctively rise to her defense! She is like a mother to them too. Ellen White has taught you how to dress, and how to eat, and tried to educate you in all her beliefs and values. That is exactly what any good mother tries to do!

Ellen White writing her son Willie,

“The Lord loves those little children who try to do right, and He has promised that they shall be in His kingdom. But wicked children God does not love. He will not take them to the beautiful City, for He only admits the good, obedient, and patient children there.” – Ellen G. White,An Appeal to the Youth, pp. 62-63.

This frank statement is merely a reflection of the overall view contained through out her writings. I pity little Willie who grew up in the White home being taught things like this. Can you imagine if little Willie, like his brother had died at that young age believing this? Sadly hundreds of thousands of youth in the Adventist church are raised with this same legalistic view of things. Thank God that He loved us while we were yet sinners.

Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Are You Trying to Reform Yourself or Are You Born Again?

You are free to disagree with me; I promise I will not take offense. I am actually quite secure both in my relationship with Christ as well as my renewed faith in scripture. I have returned to my first love. I study the Bible ten times more now than I did during my last ten years as an Adventist.

  • Your position: I have fallen off the track. ( I understand why you think that).
  • My position: Your faith is balanced, and your views of Ellen White are mostly balanced, because it is focused mostly on the sections she took from other balanced Christian authors.

Because of that, I see no need to try to change you in anyway. Since the over all goal of my website is to aid people in gaining the assurance of salvation. However if by discussing our differences it will strengthen your faith and make you a stronger Christian, then the time is worth the effort.

You may be desiring to engage me in this debate to “set me straight,” & “reclaim me” to the Christ. Brother He has never left me nor forsaken me, and I now cling to Him and the Word of God like never before!

“Sincerity makes the very least person to be of more value than the most talented hypocrite.” Charles Spurgeon

Although you do not challenge my sincerity, it concerns me that you view the millions of Evangelicals with a like-minded view as I now have as lacking the essentials of salvation.  If that is not the case then you must concede that both Evangelicals and myself are true Christians. That means we are brothers in Christ and ought to view one another as such. I respect your faith and count you a true Christian. I see no need to try to change you so long as you are satisifed with your beliefs..

Brother XXXXXXX,

“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” – Jesus Christ

Your church challenges the teachings of all other churches. So please allow me to do the same with your teachings without presenting to me a double standard. Since the Adventist freely question the teachings of other churches, allow me the same opportunity to question the teachings of your church with the same respect you hope to have, when you challenge the teachings of other Christians.

We are both “blunt” and direct men, by nature brother XXXXXXX. There is a time for all things under heaven. Jesus was direct with the Pharisees. But most of the time he was meek and lowly in heart. Balance is the key! Peter said to give a reason for the hope that is in you with MEEKNESS. Paul said restore such a one in a spirit of MEEKNESS.

I will close with a story.

When I was a boy, my dad would give my brother and I a quarter whenever the ice cream truck would roll by and play its music. One day my dad was asleep when we heard the music from a distance. I was only 4 years old at the time. I went into my dad’s room, and took the wallet out of his pocket and found a $5 dollar bill. At the time it is was the largest denomination I had ever held in my hands. I snuck out of his room quietly and ran to meet the ice cream truck. When I got there I handed the man the $5, and asked him “how much can I get for this?” Boy was I surprised.

About three hours later my dad called me into his room and confronted me with the missing $5… GULP!

My dad was a kind man, but did not hesitate to use the belt. I JUST KNEW THE BELT WAS COMING!

I was terrified!

My dad did something that day I will never forget. He sat me down and told me about Heaven! I deserved the wrath of my father, but instead was shown mercy and love. It reduced me to tears, and I never again stole money from my dad’s wallet!

That day, my dad demonstrated MEEKNESS! And it made all the difference in the world, to that little four year old boy! It had a longer lasting impression on me than all the belt lashes he gave at other times. There is a time for all things. The belt is necessary at times, but whenever possible MEEKNESS has longer lasting results.

“The Saviour reigned in all their hearts, and they successfully copied the pattern of meekness and gentleness, which he had left them.” 19th Century Clergymen, John Strachan

BLESSINGS IN THE LORD!!!
David M. Curtis

Tags: ,

2 Comments

  • mrloudcry says:

    The professor I am addressing in this letter began commenting on my video on YouTube about 48 hours ago. Those comments were broadcasted as instant Tweets and FaceBook comments on my accounts.

    To view our comments see the next comment in this thread.

    About 24 hours ago he sent me an email stating he no longer wanted to debate publicly because, ‘a private discussion might be better…I have no interest in embarrassing you in public.”

    I responded to him,

    “As far as embarrassing me, Christ has borne my shame and nailed it to a tree.

    Romans 1:16
    For I am NOT ASHAMED of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth.”

    John 18:20-23
    Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and IN SECRET HAVE I SAID NOTHING.
    Why askest thou me? ask them which heard me, what I have said unto them: behold, they know what I said.
    And when he had thus spoken, one of the officers which stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand, saying, Answerest thou the high priest so?
    Jesus answered him, If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil: but if well, why smitest thou me?

    Yesterday the professor asked for me to add him to my friends list on FaceBook. So I did. This morning I posted this THOUGHTFUL LETTER which took hours for me to write and edit, along with the YouTube URL to our debate so that his over 580 friends – largely Seventh-day Adventist in number – could join in the fun of embarrassing me.

    Despite the fact that as he repeatedly points out to me that he is a great and learned man, a professor no less, and despite the fact I would have been seriously out numbered 580 to 1, the professor removed my URL pointing to this letter and URL pointing to our debate on YouTube, from off his FaceBook wall.

    The Adventist church has had a long history in SUPPRESSING INFORMATION from its membership, just like we have witnessed today.

    CLICK HERE to read the long history among Adventists in covering-up the facts so that the masses among their membership will not learn the information that is available on this website as well as a great number of other scholarly presented web pages made by other former SDA sites.

    In the table of contents you will find the following

    BOOK II – HISTORY OF ADVENTISM’S LONG WAR AGAINST TRUTH
    Chapter 4 – The Cover-Up 1844 to 1899
    Chapter 5 – The Cover-Up 1900-1919
    Chapter 6 – The Cover-Up 1920-1939
    Chapter 7 – The Cover-Up 1940-1959
    Chapter 8 – Cover-Up During the 1960’s and 1970’s
    Chapter 9 – The Cover-Up 1980-1989
    Chapter 10 – The Cover-Up 1990 to Present

    Let’s Compare a Few Things, and the Way Adventists Respond

    The Adventists believe in the glorious return of Jesus
    Some Christians teach a secret Rapture

    The Adventist Response: Suppress information about the secret rapture? NO! They educate their members how to answer it.

    The Adventists believe in the final destruction of the wicked in the lake of fire
    Most Christians teach an eternal torment

    The Adventist Response: Suppress information about the eternal torment doctrine? NO! They educate their members how to answer it.

    The Adventists believe in soul sleep after death
    Most Christians teach an the spirit immediately goes to heaven at death

    The Adventist Response: Suppress information about the other churches teaching about death? NO! They educate their members how to answer it.

    The Adventist teach the Day of Atonement happened on October 22, in 1844.
    The Jews teach that the Day of Atonement happened on September 23, in 1844.

    The Adventist Response: Suppress information about the Jewish Day of Atonement? YES! They have NO WAY to educate their members how to answer it.

    The Adventist teach the pagans worshiped each Sunday in their temples.
    The world’s foremost authorities, the encyclopedias, and dictionaries all deny pagans worshiped each Sunday.

    The Adventist Response: Suppress information about what historians and encyclopedias say about pagans and Sunday? YES! They have NO WAY to educate their members how to answer it.

    The facts are that whenever the Adventist feels he can answer and debate something they do. Whenever they cannot answer something they SUPPRESS IT!

    It is my opinion, that the Professor did not want the more than 580 friends – largely Seventh-day Adventist in number – to see that I ANSWERED ALL HIS ARGUMENTS AND PROVED HIM WRONG ON EVERY POINT! I guess the Professor was the one who did not want to be embarrassed!

    At least two of his friends Face book Recommended this OPEN LETTER before he removed it from his wall.

    Later today I will post those debates right here on this page. Decide for yourself why you think he did not want his buddies to read our debate.

  • mrloudcry says:

     @mrloudcry David,I have visited your site in the past and was shocked to see that you’ve left the truth to follow popular opinion.As a professor, theo major&volunteer pastor with long time experience debating atheists,I can tell you that many of the arguments that you&others like you use to discredit SDA are exactly the same ones atheists use to discredit Christianity. I am so busy with deadlines,but will try to send you a few evidences over time that your arguments are not biblical or logical.

     @Truthxxxxxxx
    You said, The arguments that you&others like you use to discredit SDA are exactly the same ones atheists use to discredit Christianity.

    You may have also cited the fact that Christians have to debate with atheists over archeology as well. The difference between evolution, archeology, and HISTORY, is that BOTH SIDES of evolution and archeology have EVIDENCE from which to DEFEND THEIR POSITIONS. The Seventh-day Adventist on the other hand HAS NO HISTORICAL EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THEIR POSITIONS in regards to Pagans Worshiping on Sundays, and the Papacy Having enough influence over the whole world to influence Sunday Observance in the first and second century.

    Please see my video called, “Early Sunday Observance Among Christians Part 1 of 2″
    & “Early Sunday Observance Among Christians Part 2 of 2″ located on my channel under the play list called “Sunday Observance”

     @mrloudcry It is absolutely and categorically false that SDAs have no historical evidence to support their positions. I have reams of historical evidence for much that we say. But,the SDA church and GC are not infallible and I check what they say just like I do Bible teachers in other churches against the Bible. Just because they call offerings worship for example does NOT make it so and does NOT do a thing to prove that Paul’s call for offerings was at a church worship time.

     @Truthxxxxxxx
    You said, I have reams of historical evidence for much that we say.

    Besides the two issues I raised about Sunday

    Prove October 22, 1844 was the Day of Atonement. Visit MY SITE’S HOME PAGE and you will find at the top A LINK TO A JEWISH SITE THAT WILL CALCULATE DATES, enter the following dates and this is exactly what you get.

    Monday 23 September 1844 = 10th day of Tishri (7th Month) DAY OF ATONEMENT!!!
    Tuesday 22 October 1844 = 9th day of Heshvan (8th Month) No Biblical significance!

    The Jewish Encyclopedia Agrees!

     @Truthxxxxxxx

    The Adventist will document scores of quotes from the Karaite Jews about methods of keeping time, and finagle them into supporting October 22. What I would like to see is the Adventist go to the actual Karaite Jews and tell them their 1844 calendars are wrong, and there encyclopedias are wrong and help those poor Jews who have kept the Jewish Calendar for thousands of years get their dates right for 1844 so that they will agree with October 22. After all according to the Adventist, the Karaite Jews are nearly an entire month off in 1844, and after all the Adventist just know better (sarcasm). The Adventist think they know more about the Jewish calendar than the Jews themselves. Amazing!

     @Truthxxxxxxx

    Go to ANY Jewish source and be specific: Ask which day in 1844 was the Day of Atonement? They all give a VERY SPECIFIC answer and say September 23!
    Quote as many Karaite Jewish sources as you like and finagle them anyway you like! According to the Karaite Jews the Day of Atonement in 1844 was on September 23, and that is the bottom line! You will notice that NONE of the Karaite Jewish sources quoted by Adventist will specify October 22, hence all the Adventist hootenanny shenanigans and finaglings with the Karaite Jewish documents!

     @Truthxxxxxxx

    I said, “The Seventh-day Adventist on the other hand HAS NO HISTORICAL EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THEIR POSITIONS.”
    This is in regards to Pagans Worshiping on Sundays, and the Papacy Having enough influence over the whole world to influence Sunday Observance in the first century.
    Please see my video called, “Early Sunday Observance Among Christians Part 1 of 2″
    & “Early Sunday Observance Among Christians Part 2 of 2″ located on my channel under the play list called “Sunday Observance”

     @Truthxxxxxxx

    Mormon’s have no archeological support for the Book of Mormon. The cities in Joseph Smiths book are pure fiction. When confronted with the LACK OF EVIDENCE, they respond exactly as you have. What the Adventist claim about Sunday HAS NO SUPPORT IN HISTORY and IS COMPLETELY FICTION! If history did support your churches claims you would have quoted them.
    Samuel Bacchiochi admits Pagans did not worship on Sundays, and Christians observed it before the pope or the Roman church had influence.

     @mrloudcry Oh..P.S. to the below. I do NOT doubt your sincerity. I don’t doubt the sincerity of many Christians who are compromising on evolution. But, throughout history, the #1 problem of God’s people has been compromising with popular opinion. The Jews did it in the OT and NT. The Christians did it with the Greeks (and caused millions to die by following nonsense like bleeding patients when the Bible said life is in the blood). Compromising is not God’s way David, no matter how sincere.

    @Truthxxxxxxx

    Popular opinion is not too popular with me personally. What you ascribe to popular opinion, in winning over my confidence, IS HARD EVIDENCE, both historically and Biblically! I NEVER use the popular vote argument even one time on my website. I quote the Bible and history and reason with the reader from those two sources.

     @mrloudcry Last, on this video and your comments above, yes, the first day of the week is Sunday in the Bible. But, when people were supposed to set aside their tithe and save it for when Paul would visit has absolutely nothing to do with transferring the holiness of Saturday to Sunday. Paul is telling them to gather all their money and then just BRING it when he comes, NOT gather it then.It doesn’t mean they were in church at the time let alone that they were worshipping weekly on Sunday.

     @Truthxxxxxxx
    You said, When Paul would visit has absolutely nothing to do WITH TRANSFERRING THE HOLINESS OF SATURDAY TO SUNDAY.

    We BOTH agree that Sunday is NOT a Sabbath. While it is well documented that the earliest Christians all universally ASSEMBLED on Sunday, they never considered Sunday holy or a Sabbath. Please dont confuse my views with the Puritans of the 16th and 17th Centuries. Sunday is NOT a Sabbath! Sunday is not a holy rest day, it is simply a day when Christians Assemble for worship

     @Truthxxxxxxx

    The first mention of Sunday being a day of rest was in 220AD by Origen. This is the beginning of the current false doctrine, that Sunday is the Christian Sabbath. Sunday is an ASSEMBLY day for Christians, not a holy day at all. The New Testament has NO HOLY DAYS! Neither Sabbath nor any other day! This is my position, so please do not assert that I maintain Sabbath was transferred to Sunday. I believe no such thing!

     @Truthxxxxxxx

    Once again we BOTH agree that Saturday is the 7th day of the week. No contest! We BOTH agree that Sunday is NOT a holy day. No contest there either. Here is the problem. I maintain that Sabbath is OLD TESTAMENT THEOLOGY, and YES it is supported by tons of OLD TESTAMENT verses; however it is NOT supported in the New Testament at all! We are NO LONGER UNDER THE OLD COVENANT; we are under a NEW COVENANT!

     @Truthxxxxxxx
    You said, When Paul would visit has absolutely nothing to do WITH TRANSFERRING THE HOLINESS OF SATURDAY TO SUNDAY.

    We BOTH agree that Sunday is NOT a Sabbath. Sunday is not a holy rest day, it is simply a day when Christians Assemble for worship. It is no more a sin to ASSEMBLE for worship on Sunday, than it is for the Adventist to ASSEMBLE for worship Wednesday night. WEDNESDAY is a TRADITION OF MEN, WITH EVEN LESS SUPPORT FROM THE BIBLE AND HISTORY to support it!

     @Truthxxxxxxx
    You said, Paul is telling them to gather all their money and then just BRING it when he comes, NOT gather it then.

    You are contradicting yourself. Bringing and Gathering are the SAME THING! If they had to be brought to Paul or whether they had to be gathered to Paul is synonymous, i.e. THE SAME THING!

     @mrloudcry As a professor in the linguistics field, I can tell you most certainly that gathering and bringing are NOT at all the same thing. You gather in a harvest. This might take days or even weeks. Then you bring it into a storehouse in a far shorter time…they both do refer movement…but they are not at all the same. Gathering is about collecting things. Bringing something does not include collecting things, just moving things (in this case what you’ve already collected/gathered).

     @Truthxxxxxxx

    One does not need to be a professor in the linguistics field, in order to read a dictionary!

    The freedictionary com says,
    gathering
    1. a group of people, things (SUCH AS OFFERINGS), etc., that are gathered together; ASSEMBLY.
    “PLEASE KEEP YOUR MONEY IN YOUR SEPARATE HOMES SO THEY WON’T NEED TO BE GATHERED WHEN I GET THERE.” That makes NO SENSE and is self-contradictory! If they had to be brought to Paul or whether they had to be gathered to Paul is synonymous, i.e. THE SAME THING! Either way the money would need to be gathered when he came, this is what Paul wanted to avoid.

     @Truthxxxxxxx

    Merriam-Webster com says,
    “gather,
    : to bring together : COLLECT (SUCH AS COLLECTING OFFERINGS) “tried to gather a crowd (SUCH AS AN ASSEMBLY)”
    a : pick, HARVEST “gather flowers” b : to pick up OR AMASS as if by harvest.”
    Adventist used to COLLECT OFFERINGS and call it IN GATHERING i.e. harvesting.
    In Store literally means in the Greek, heap treasure together in other words to AMASS or to to bring together. Agreeing with Websters dictionary!

     @Truthxxxxxxx
    You said, It doesn’t mean they were in church at the time let alone that they were WORSHIPING weekly on Sunday.

    According to The Stewardship Department of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventist written in an article called, “AN ACT OF WORSHIP” GIVING OUR OFFERINGS IS AN ACT OF WORSHIP!!! You will find that article at AdventistStewardship com

     @Truthxxxxxxx
    You said, It doesn’t mean they were in church at the time let alone that they were worshipping WEEKLY on Sunday.

    The phrase: “EVERY first day” in 1 Cor 16:2 is in the Greek:
    The Greek word “KATA” is the same in both 1 Cor 16:2 and Acts 14:23. Greek authorities agree that 1 Cor 16:2 says, “Every week”.
    1. 1 Cor 16:2 “first day of every [KATA] week”
    2. Acts 14:23 appoint elders in every [KATA] city”
    1 Corinthians 16:2 (Interlinear)
    “EVERY FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK”
    Even the Interlinear Greek Bible recognizes this collection was to occur EVERY FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK!
    I have TEN translations that says “EVERY”

     @mrloudcry It is absolutely and categorically false that I or SDAs have to go to the OT alone to support SDA theology. The new covenant does not abrogate the 10 commandments or the Sabbath or most of God’s other laws. From what you have written in the past, or at least I thought you had written…I am really shocked that you are so confused on these basic issues. It’s really late though..and I have much work to do tomorrow…I’ll get back to you with evidence of this as soon as I can get free.

     @Truthxxxxxxx
    You said, “It is absolutely and categorically false that I or SDAs have to go to the OT alone to support SDA theology.”

    I do hope you will use Matthew 5:17-19. Matthew 24:20. James 2:10-12, 1 John 3:4, Revelation 14:12 etc. Not to mention the argument “I will write my laws in their heart!” Hebrews 8. Please visit my website (SEE DESCRIPTION UNDER VIDEO) and see the sections on the “PRO-TEN COMMANDMENT NT VERSES,” and the link at the top which says, “THE OLD COVENANT IS FINISHED!”

     @Truthxxxxxxx

    Ellen White acknowledges that the validity of the Sabbath is assumed in the New Testament. She wrote against presumption, and yet her core teaching is based entirely upon presumptions about the Sabbath.

    The New Testament does not reenact the law of the tithe, as it does not that of the Sabbath; for THE VALIDITY OF BOTH IS ASSUMED. R. & H., May 16, 1882.

    You have to go to the Old Testament ALONE to support your Old Testament theology! I really do hope you try to disprove that statement! We are under a NEW COVENANT NOW!

     @mrloudcry I think you are missing the point…what Jews or Christians do as normal practice or otherwise is not the standard that God sets out in the Bible for us to follow. It is so often the case that the majority is wrong in spiritual history, that you need to be extremely certain that you are right before agreeing with the majority. Btw, I didn’t agree that most early Christians were keeping Sunday. Some were esp. because of Roman persecution of Jews (not a valid reason).

     @Truthxxxxxxx
    You said, you need to be extremely certain that you are right before agreeing with the majority. Btw, I didn’t agree that most early Christians were keeping Sunday.

    Actually I am agreeing WITH HARD EVIDENCE FROM HISTORY! Not the custom of the masses in the world today!

    Visit my website (LINKED IN THE DESCRIPTION BELOW THE VIDEO) and scroll down the CATEGORIES and click on the link under SUNDAY, called Historical Evidence That Sunday Was Observed From The Time Of The Apostles.

    @mrloudcry
     But, many continued keeping Saturday for centuries. Socrates Scholasticus in the 400s AD writes, “For although almost all Churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries [the eucharist] on the sabbath of every week,yet the Christians of Alexandria&at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this.” The cities of Rome and Alexandria were the first Christian assemblies to break the tradition of meeting on the Sabbath and worship on Sunday.

     @Truthxxxxxxx

    you need to be extremely certain that you are right before you misquote historians!

    Read the CONEXT: Taken IMMIEDIATELY BEFORE THE SOCRATES QUOTE.

    “Since however no one can produce a written command as an authority, IT IS EVIDENT THAT THE APOSTLES LEFT EACH ONE TO HIS OWN FREE WILL IN THE MATTER, to the end that each might perform what is good not by constraint or necessity. Such is the difference in the churches on the subject of fasts. Nor is there less variation in regard to religious assemblies.
    NEXT WE WILL READ WHAT SOCRATES SAID IMMEDIATELY AFTER.”

     @Truthxxxxxxx

    Taken IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE SOCRATES QUOTE.

    “The Egyptians in the neighborhood of Alexandria, and the inhabitants of Thebas HOLD THEIR RELIGIOUS ASSEMBLIES ON THE SABBATH, BUT DO NOT PARTICIPATE OF THE MYSTERIES IN THE MANNER USUAL AMONG CHRISTIANS IN GENERAL for after having eaten and satisfied themselves with food of all kinds, in the evening making their offerings they partake of the mysteries. At Alexandria again, ON THE WEDNESDAY in Passion week and ON GOOD FRIDAY the scriptures are read,”

     @Truthxxxxxxx

    Since you keep boasting, of your great learning as a professor, you will not mind reading the Socrates Quote in CONTEXT . If you do you will see a completely different picture. Socrates Scholasticus, circa 379-450 A.D., Ecclesiastical History, Book 5.

    Socrates Scholasticus is not discussing 7th day Sabbath-keeping -v- Sunday keeping, in fact the term Sabbath in the socrates quote is not the 7th day Jewish sabbath in this passage. This clearly proved by his introductory words to Book 5, Chapter 22.

    IN THE 4TH CENT., CHRISTIANS WERE CALLING SUNDAY THE SABBATH. WHEN HE SPOKE OF THE SABBATH SOCRATES WAS IN FACT SPEAKING OF SUNDAY.
    The Lords Day, i.e. Sunday was the day that Christians partook of the Lords Supper which Socrates called the Eucharist.

     @Truthxxxxxxx

    Socrates, “Churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries [the Eucharist] on the sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this”

    READING THE CONTEXT shows that just as the quote says, IS WRITING OF THE LORD’s SUPPER which he called “Eucharists.”

    Prove “some Ancient Tradition” was meant to apply to the observance of Sunday ACCORDING TO THE CONTEXT. It says nothing of the sort! See for yourself!

    @Truthxxxxxxx

     According to Socrates, In Alexandira they ALSO KEPT “THE SABBATH.” The last half of your quote says, “…yet the Christians of Alexandria at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this (CONTINUING WHERE YOU LEFT OFF) The Egyptians in the neighborhood of Alexandria, and the inhabitants of Thebas HOLD THEIR RELIGIOUS ASSEMBLIES ON THE SABBATH, BUT DO NOT PARTICIPATE OF THE MYSTERIES IN THE MANNER USUAL AMONG CHRISTIANS IN GENERAL” Socrates Scholasticus, circa 379-450 A.D.

    @Truthxxxxxxx

    Socrates Scholasticus is not discussing 7th day Sabbath-keeping -v- Sunday keeping. That fact is evident by the very next sentence which clearly said those in Alexandria and Rome where both keeping the same day each week. The context shows that those in Alexandria and Rome were observing the “mysteries” of the Lord’s Supper only once a year during the passion week on Wednesday and Good Friday. Whereas the “THE MYSTERIES IN THE MANNER USUAL AMONG CHRISTIANS IN GENERAL” were held on what he called the sabbath i.e. Sunday the Lord’s day!

    “A text taken out of context becomes a pretext.”

    pre·text Noun /ˈprēˌtekst/
    Synonyms:

    noun: excuse, pretence, pretense, plea

    pretext
    A reason given in justification of a course of action that is not the real reason intended by the statement

     @Truthxxxxxxx

    Socrates was against imitating the Jewish customs!

    “It appears to me that neither the ancients nor moderns who have affected to follow the Jews, have had any rational foundation for contending so obstinately about it. For they have not taken into consideration the fact that when Judaism was changed into Christianity, the obligation to observe the Mosaic law and the ceremonial types ceased. And the proof of the matter is plain; for no law of Christ permits Christians to imitate the Jews.” Socrates Scholasticus, Book 5, Chapter 22

    @mrloudcry
     By the way, sorry for misrepresenting you on the injury causing inspiration and Sunday being holy, etc. I just came here and haven’t read all you say..but have read a huge amount on these arguments before and they just do not make biblical or logical sense. How many cases can you find of head injuries causing accurate and crucial visions and specific prophecies that have been fulfilled. Btw, I sent you 3 e-mails also…but check your junk mail since they might have gone there.

     @Truthxxxxxxx
    You said, “How many cases can you find of head injuries causing accurate and crucial visions and specific prophecies that have been fulfilled.”

    This is a REPEAT comment, however I will be happy to ask you to please visit my website for more info.

    Please visit my website (linked to in the DESCRIPTION below the video), and click the link that is called Ellen G. White. Then read the post called, Other False Prophets and their Sabbath Movements

    @mrloudcry
     2 examples.
    1) You say EGW ‘s head injury caused her insights. Atheists make the same allegations about injuries and mental illness causing Ezekiel’s prophecies and others. Please cite cases where a head injury or mental illness has caused someone to inspire millions like EGWs.
    2) What Christians were doing as normal practice has as little to do with following God as what the Pharisees were doing during Jesus time in telling people they could say Corban and not need to support their parents.

     @Truthxxxxxxx
    You said, What Christians were doing as normal practice has as little to do with following God as what the Pharisees were doing during Jesus time in telling people they could say Corban and not need to support their parents.

    I am thankful you recognize the customs of Christians on the First Day of the Week was their, normal practice. Please see the category on my website called, Sunday for such articles as Historical Evidence That Sunday Was Observed From The Time Of The Apostles

     @Truthxxxxxxx
    You said, Please cite cases where a head injury or mental illness has caused someone to inspire millions like EGWs.

    I have already done so. Please visit my website (linked to in the DESCRIPTION below the video), and click the link that is called Ellen G. White. Then read the post called, Other False Prophets and their Sabbath Movements

     @Truthxxxxxxx
    You said, You say EGW ‘s head injury caused her insights.

    Actually my position is that Ellen Whites Head Injury caused her delusional VISIONS, that is when she was not copying them from others. What caused her insights was both reading and borrowing from the great Christian authors of her time. Whenever genuine insights are given in her writings they came from great men of God, who wrote THEIR insights in books. Ellen White copied them, and passed them off as her own.

     @mrloudcry I read your article, Other False Prophets and their Sabbath Movements. NONE of them got their insights from head injuries or mental illnesses&NONE were even remotely as inspiring or accurate in health, prophecies or Bible understanding as EGW.There’s a reason why EGW is the most translated female author in the world&none of them are even close.That article doesn’t proving that head injuries or mental illnesses cause inspiration,esp. not inspiration that points people to the Bible.

     @Truthxxxxxxx

    Some of the Other False Prophets and their Sabbath Movements had HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of followers. They may not be inspiring to you, but they were to them. THEIR PROPHETS HAD VISIONS and DREAMS, and PROMOTED the Sabbath in some instances.

    To See how head injury have effected THOUSANDS WITH VISIONS documented by hundreds of DR.s Visit my website (LINKED IN THE DESCRIPTION BELOW THE VIDEO) and scroll down the CATEGORIES and click on the link under ELLEN WHITE, called HEAD INJURY

     @Truthxxxxxxx

    You may also want to check out the link under ELLEN WHITE on my website called THE HEALTH MESSAGE. Was she or her supposed visions really the origin of the health message?

Comments are closed. Would you like to contact the author directly?

Copyright © 2011-2014 The Loud Cry All rights reserved.